Of Water and Myth:
In conversation with Roisin Jones and Richard Nattoo
Following an initial studio visit at Artisan House, the conversation continues one month later—documenting the growth of Jones' and Nattoo's collaboration in preparation for their duo exhibition, Bound Waters - Confluence.
Interview by Emma Miles
April 22, 2025
​Emma: Since collaborating, have there been any surprises that you’ve learnt about each other’s practice or work — anything that shifted from your initial perceptions?
Richard: I had seen Roisin make her work, I knew it took a while, but I had no idea how much time. There’s a lot of intentionality that goes into her work. On the surface, you see and feel the work, but being in studio has been a very happy surprise for me, because it gives me more freedom to put a bit more into my own work.
Roisin: What surprised me is that Richard makes everything. He makes every, single thing. The amount of work that goes into his methodology is very intentional, but again, a labour of love. That truly inspired me to bring up my game as well as general work ethic. What’s been really surprising is that I get why he does certain things and it gives me comfort as an artist. It’s been a very good exchange, I think we’re quite solid. [Looks to Richard] I don’t know about you, I work on a daily basis with Seg and I do work collaboratively, but mostly everything is quite solitary. That’s what’s good – opening up and being able to connect.
Richard: Usually when I make the work, it has been solitary but it is very beautiful being in the space together and being inspired by each other.
Emma: I can hear the admiration. Water plays a central role in this project, both metaphorically and materially. What inspired you to focus on water as this metaphor for transformation, connection and resilience?
Roisin: So what we’ve done throughout this project– it’s not just a show but it has been residency. We’ve been exploring spaces and trying to imagine the mythology of the River Mumma. That’s been the central focus, to find something we both connect to. We’ve been to a few water bodies: Flat Bridge, where a lot of Richard's work is around that space, Falling Edge, we did a shoot there which was really beautiful. We went to Port Antonio as well to see the Blue Lagoon, we also went to Moore Town – the river and waterways within Jamaica.
I feel like water is part of my own personal lore and a lot of the things I talk about comes from that personal lens. My family migrated out of Jamaica so water is going to be intrinsic about that history. We had to journey in a sense. Realising within my own practice that water is kind of the theme of my life, and it’s how I connect with my Jamaicanness in a way. It’s unavoidable.
Richard: Very similar. Water has been a very central theme within my work too. I use water from rivers, from natural sources, only use what I call 'living water’. There have been times in my work where it’s just been about water. I had a series called 'Breathe', back in 2021202/2 and it was about the metaphor of water and how dynamic and complex it can be, and how many stories are within the context of water.
I grew up around water in a certain way. Specifically, I would go to the river with my father a lot. Those were some of the best memories growing up. I would wake up early in the morning, my mom would fry chicken, and we’d go to the more unrestricted, unregulated part of the coastline, and it was just so beautiful. I’d see jellyfish and massive stingrays, and you’d kind of be scared but then would be curious at the same time. I used to look at the water and wonder, “Why does the ocean have different bands of colour in it? That’s so interesting. That’s so weird, dark green, light green, and purple.” There’s always been this curiosity within water and water as an entire spirit in itself. It just made so much sense how this collaboration came together. Water for both of us has been an unavoidable theme.​
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Emma: Collaborating together, did your approach to water change at all, in how you used water materially or again, metaphorically? Did your relationship change at all with how you were viewing water?
Richard: I think for me, I got a bit more reverence towards water throughout this project, hearing different stories around water. And hearing your [Roisin’s] personal relationship with water and with the ocean.
Roisin: I used to go to the river with my dad. Where I grew up, there's the River Thames. So even at home, I’m surrounded by that ecology. I think having that connection to land is something that's changed for me. There’s not really a clear sense of identity within my works, there's no themes and symbols and so [in Richard’s work] everything feels Jamaican. The wood in your work is Jamaica, the water you’re using to paint is Jamaican. That really flipped a switch for me. What is the relationship even within the work that connects to the water?
I have a personal relationship to water that connects to the River Mumma. We were talking about it with my grandmother. There was a reported River Mumma on our land in Westmoreland. For me, it feels like there’s a lineage there. When I think about myself, as Richard is looking at me suspiciously, there’s a lot of connection to the River Mumma. I feel like I could be water; imagine you create a character for that.
Richard: Within my own family, there's a River Mumma story too with my grand aunt where it used to always try to get her to come into the water. I found that out pretty recently too. So it’s interesting that both of us have those stories.
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Emma: Richard, in your work, you’ve been incorporating living water from rivers around Jamaica physically in your pieces. What's the significance of physically embedding water into your practice? Whether with watercolours or sculpture, ceramics or other media, what does this act mean?
Richard: Painting with watercolour is a conversation. You tell this paint what you’d like, and if it likes it, it does what you’d want. It’s a big push and pull, kind of like what a river is, there’s this dynamism to the water body. I use water from rivers and I call it 'living water'. Rivers have been around for so long, they’ve seen different settlements. They are like natural archives in a way. When I’m inviting the spirit of the river within the work, I'm inviting a lot of history of a certain place, of my country and my culture. There’s that spirit that is there. It’s a lot about remembering, and rivers have been holders of memories for many years and generations. It’s important for me to invite that within the work.
Emma: Roisin, was it your first time using living water within your work during this project?
Roisin: A little bit. We’ve been using the water to create some ceramics. It actually feels more sacred, moulding it out of the water. We did collect some clay from places we visited near the water, maybe that’s something we’ll look into. I have a hybridised identity. A lot of the things I've worked on in my thesis and research is about the idea of diaspora and memory and honouring. I think being able to locate myself now here and use the water to create something, it gives it a different energy, I think.
Emma: Both of your practices really engage with Caribbean folklore. What drew you to the River Mumma for this project? Was there any reimagining or reinterpretation of her presence in this new work?
Richard: When I was doing my last set of works for the show in Cape Town, I got interested in this spirit. For some weird reason, the actual River Mumma character that I painted looked very similar to Roisin. And coming together now, doing this residency, talking about stories of the River Mumma within our own families, it naturally made sense. There was this natural curiosity for both of us to go deeper, and to see, who was this spirit? What is this spirit? And seeing what are these stories around her/them?
Roisin: I feel like what I’ve been doing in this residency, what I’ve been thinking about is – how is she living her life? and the intimacies of the River Mumma. I feel connected to her in that she literally is a hybridised creature, she's an amphibian of the land and she has this dichotomy. She is a good way to look at femininity, especially, Black femininity. There’s a lot of fear there; there’s reverence, but there’s definitely fear as well, and trying to find a way to connect with her through the medium. It came quite naturally, especially when we’re talking about water. I think it will be interesting to see as the stories progress, where it takes us, and the story that’s going to be built with the exhibition and further on into the practice.
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Emma: How do you think this reimagining of the River Mumma contributes to this evolving nature of Caribbean mythology? She’s manifesting in a different way in this project than in the past works you’ve done, is there any way you think this is contributing to our understanding?
Richard: Definitely contributing. Sometimes, as Roisin said, there’s reverence, but then there’s this fear. I don't really see much work that tells her stories. I think a lot of people will come [to the exhibition] and there’s a lot that can be learnt. There will be people talking about their own River Mumma stories within their families, stories that they’ve heard. This big sharing within this context will lead people to wanting to share more and keep these stories alive.
Roisin: I think it's something we‘re approaching with curiosity. Because it’s such a well-known myth and folklore, it’s good to experiment with it, but there’s an idea people have already in their heads, so trying to subvert and question that. The project is a cross-cultural exchange, I’m from England and these stores still keep us connected, they’re part of the heritage and the culture. Being able to do the practice of storytelling itself and showing the cross-cultural collaboration, that’s meaningful, and hopefully will bring more opportunities. How do we all claim this heritage without taking it away from local culture? I think that's maybe how I feel about the exhibition as well, it’s about the River Mumma but it’s also about this project that we’re undergoing to build this body of work and building on the culture and disseminating it into the world and diaspora.
Emma: Moving a bit more to the personal side, your relationships to Jamaica are quite different. Richard, you having grown up in Jamaica and Roisin, being raised in the UK as part of the Jamaican diaspora. How has this shaped the dialogue in your collaborative work?
Roisin: I think from my perspective, I'm learning a lot, understanding a lot more about myself in terms of mannerisms and seeing where things come from. It has made me reflect on my Jamaican heritage more, and also coming to terms with my Englishness and Britishness, and that’s.. weird. It’s a good thing because it means you come back to yourself and truly you’ve grown. There are things about my Jamaican heritage that I now understand, even if it’s just shouting at the cinema TV.
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Emma: Did you feel there was any particular responsibility when you were collaborating, a responsibility either to Jamaica, the diaspora in the UK or to something else altogether?
Richard: I felt a responsibility to the river. I felt that to properly tell that story, if I’m reimagining it, to not do anything that brings misinformation, to not make the River Mumma be this all, dark evil thing that kills people. Just like how people probably speak about the spirit of things happening with Flat Bridge, because there’s so many more nuanced perspectives and angles to really understand. So that’s something I felt a big responsibility to, to fully understand what I’m talking about.
Roisin: I felt a responsibility, it was more about deep learning. We spent time at the library, to look at different folklore. That was important to me, to understand contextually, and to understand what it means here. I know about the folklore anecdotally from my family, but not the actual folklore. As a person from the diaspora, I understand me coming into Jamaica has a certain meaning. And so, being patient in terms of allowing people to talk about things in a way that maybe won’t be obvious to me, felt important. It’s been very much deep listening, this project, and absorbing and understanding. And also, what it means to be Jamaican here as well. It’s been a bit of a journey of self-discovery because of that. I felt I had that responsibility to listen more.
Emma: That leads to my final question for you, Roisin. Has your sense of place deepened in any unexpected ways since this collaborative project?
Roisin: I think so, I feel a little homesick which never happens, but that's made me reflect on my life in England, but also there is a home for me here [in Jamaica] if I so choose. I don't want to lose that connection. I guess I am third generation, so for me, it really is about making a choice to make this more of my experience. I do see myself coming back to Jamaica. It has deepened my sense of place and sense of identity, and made me ask questions about myself as a person, as well as an artist and the responsibilities I have there. But then, it’s also made me feel more comfortable about my Britishness too, and the fact that I am somewhere in between whereas I've always felt a little bit dislocated and adrift. It’s made me like, “No, you're not adrift, there's a little bit of Jamaica as well as the UK.” I feel that that's really good, it’s something special.
Also, what has helped as well is spending time with Richard, spending time with Seg, and all of the friends that we’ve made whilst we’ve been here, and yourself. That has really helped, because you can come visit Jamaica and be like, “It's a beautiful, tropical island,” and have the resort experience, but actually to live with people, be on the ground and to understand what’s going on politically here, understanding the everyday things, that’s truly been something that's invaluable to me and I'm going to take it with me. Being allowed in, because it feels like being invited into the conversation, which is something I haven't been able to before, or I didn't feel like I had the right to. Everyone I've met has been very gracious to allow me to go through that journey and maybe be a little bit ignorant, but learn and listen. That’s sort of how I've felt so far, and we’ve got a couple of weeks here, and now at this point, we feel like we live here.
Emma: Richard, my final question for you. We have our own preconceived notions of what it’s like for ‘Jamaicans outside of Jamaica’. Has your perspective of the diaspora shifted at all throughout this collaboration?
Richard: Yes, because usually when I hear about Jamaicans that didn’t necessarily grow up in Jamaica, there’s always been, “Maybe I can only relate to them to a certain point,” you know? maybe there’s certain things here being on the ground, one wouldn't really know, or wouldn't be interested in understanding. Because a lot of times, what I found is that sometimes people within the diaspora may not be so interested in Jamaicanness, but probably would just want to wear it as a badge.
But that has shifted, especially with Roisin, seeing that, it’s this surge to understand more and to be invited in the conversion. There’s this authentic curiosity and I realised that I didn't have any issues relating with her. Most of the time, I don't even have to speak, mi can jus talk how mi talk, and she just understands and that’s been a really beautiful experience. She mentioned something some time ago in one of our conversations, and she was speaking about how she grew up in the UK and she spoke about the folklore and how important those stories were to her, in grounding different parts of her identity in. That's so cool to hear her say that, to come from a different place, but to really actively make connection to Jamaica. How much diaspora people have I spent time with? I probably just see them in passing, but I definitely see through Roisin, there can be a certain depth to that. It’s not just saying that you’re Jamaican and wearing it as a badge, but understanding what that really means.
This interview was conducted via Zoom between Lisbon, Portugal and Kingston, Jamaica on
April 22, 2025. It has been edited for clarity and length.